vendredi 21 juillet 2017

When Are Implicit Citations Licit?

Short answer : when they are explicit.


Fr. David Fleming, O.F.M. (Franciscan, Ordo Fratrum Minorum, Order of Friars Minor) penned a response by the Pontifical Biblical Commission on 13.II.1905, 112 years ago and some months.

Here is my personal translation from Latin of Q and response (not trying to make this an official translation of whole document):

Q (anon.)
Whether in order to untie the difficulties which occur in many texts of Sacred Scripture, which seem to relate historic facts, it is licit for a Catholic exegete to assert it is here question of a tacit or implied citation of a document written down by a non-inspired author, whose every assertion the inspired author does not at all intend to approve or make his own, which therefore cannot be held immune from error?

R (Fr Fleming)
In the negative, except the case in which, saving the sense and judgement of the Church, it be proven with solid arguments:

  • 1° That the Hagiographer (holy author) is really citing the words or documents of someone else;

  • and 2° That he is neither approving them, nor making them his own, so that he can be rightly considered as not speaking in his own name.

What does the phrase "saving the sense and judgement of the Church" mean? It means the proof or supposed such must not contradict the sense of the Church or the judgement of the Church. A judgement can come later, but cannot go against the sense of the Church. The sense of the Church is however already there, it is Tradition. If it is traditional that Moses was not citing some fun but unserious spoof on Canaanean mythology and adding tacitly "take it for what it is worth, it's a joke!" obviously even the Church cannot judge that Moses was doing that, since such a judgement would be going against the sense of the Church. Therefore there can be no solid argument actually proving this was the case to a Catholic exegete, since he must abide by sense and judgement of the Church.

What do "solid arguments" mean?

Some philosopher has "made proofs" by radiometric dating that the account given by Moses cannot stand together with sound reason? No, that is not a solid argument, like it is not a solid argument is some philosopher by Hegelian dialectic has proven God is not personal.

Or, there is a Canaanean text or a Sumerian text, which looks suspiciously like the account of Moses, but which he cannot have approved since it involves idolatry and polytheism? No, that is not a solid argument, like it is not a solid argument to dismiss a canonical Gospel just because it involves some suspicious similarity to a Gnostic one.

Or, we find exactly one Syriac manuscript with a verse inserted between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 stating the following is an opinion? No, it is not a solid argument, that manuscript could be a fake.

So, the one solid argument one could be dealing with is when the "implicit" and "tacit" citation is not so.

Suppose a Catholic exegete has been singing a psalm from a corrupted manuscript, in which the words "the unwise hath said in his heart" are lacking, and been singing the words "there is no God", he would indeed be right to consider King David must have tacitly cited someone else he did not approve of. A very solid argument would be to go out into the wide world and find a lot of editions in which the words "The fool said in his heart:" are not lacking.

Hence my summary of the answer : they are licit to assume when they are explicit.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
St. Praxedis, Virgin*

* I take it St Laurence of Brindisi was not today any earlier than under "John XXIII", so is really tomorrow, his heavenly birthday. He is however a saint, canonised by Pope Leo XIII.

jeudi 20 juillet 2017

If Carbon Calculator should shut down, how do we know the percentages vs the years (as portions and multiples of halflife)?

I did a calculation, considering things like 1/8 of a halflife should give a percentage of original quantity corresponding to 8th root of one half. Here is my rough calculation, below is the link I am so often using instead of calculating like this:

And here is the carbon calculator online too: being short link for:

Carbon 14 Dating Calculator

Theoretic Demography Limits

Why did I reduce 58.5 to 29.25 for 30 years, before cubing for 100 years?

Probably because I wanted increase per individual, but if so I should have multiplied with six instead of three.

Either way, if we don't look at typical demographics which are downtoned by marriages becoming economically impossible or people becoming too insignificnat to marry or so, but at physical theoretical limits, we could have had quite a lot of people between Flood and Babel even if it was around 101 after Flood.

In fact even traditional estimates like Josephus Philo Judaeus quoted by Petrus Comestor* saying before Noah died (350 after Flood) there were 24100 men, plus women and children, is far below this extreme actual physical limit./HGL

* My translation is this link, but above links to where quoted in apt portion.

mardi 18 juillet 2017

Excursus on Previous

I forgot to give Biblical dates for Graham Hancock's beginning of Younger Dryas:

My Syncellus table gives for 10800 BC this span:

XIII 2865 BC
33.994 pmc 11 785 BC

Shem +
2858 BC

Peleg *
2829 BC

XIV 2824 BC
44.057 pmc 9600 BC

Interim II and St Jerome A:

iij 2820 BC
33.849 pmc, 8950 years +, 11 770 BC
iu 2751 BC
45.062 pmc, 6600 years +, 9351 BC


III 2778 BC
35.648 % = + 8550 years, 11,328 BC
IV 2688 BC
51.849 % = + 5450 years, 8138 BC

St Jerome B nearly pinpoints the year when Young Dryas began, if correct:

2744 BC
37.548 pmc, + 8100 years, 10844 BC

So, Peleg is born when the earth is divided. Arguably, Younger Dryas did isolate Americas geographically from Old World. If Nimrod was counting on Uranium from the mines at present used in Canada, he could spend all forty years the project according to a tradition actually went on, and still get no Uranium.

In my view, of course, there were minor colonies previous to Göbekli Tepe / Tower of Babel, but one could also consider them as expedition forces. And Younger Dryas cut the Palaeo-Indian ones very effectivly off from Old World, as well as reducing them.

As you may note, the Biblical dates and the carbon 14 level in atmosphere differ. How many extra years an object "had for free" because of lower carbon content, depends on how much the carbon content was. This means that one can play around with different carbon levels for any given carbon dating. Obviously, those who stick to a carbon level of 100 % of the "70 tons" in our atmosphere back anytime after 100,000 BP will consider the carbon date was the real date or close enough, i e 12800 years ago, and I obviously disagree.

Hans Georg Lundahl
ut supra
(vel sicut in bloggo, ut infra)

PS 11600 years ago "and that is the date which Plato gave for the destruction of Atlantis".

Which he had himself received from Egyptian priests, I think via Solon. Satan was well aware of the carbon rise, God had probably allowed him to know what the carbon dates would be and when they would be made, so Satan could adapt the fake Egyptian date for Atlantis falling to the carbon date of end of Younger Dryas./HGL

Is Graham Hancock Right on Göbekli Tepe? Part 4

I thought Younger Dryas was during the Göbekli Tepe period.

9600 BC to 8600 BC, as per carbon dates (which I as you know telescope into Biblical chronology). Here (19:59 in video and some previous) Hancock is saying it was really earlier 10800 BC to 9600 BC as per carbon dates.

That would imply Younger Dryas could have been part of what motivated Babel and also could have reduced many stray populations elsewhere, so that the ones assembling in Shinar could in a sense be considered equivalent of whole mankind.

To those who do not know it, Shinar = Mesopotamia. Not Sumer, even if words are related and Sumer is in Shinar too, but all of Mesopotamia. Everything South of Zagros, at least and perhaps into Zagros where not too folded, if it is between Euphrates and Tigris. And Göbekli Tepe is East of Euphrates and West of Tigris. GT (37°13′23″N) is further south than Keban (38°47′33″N), where Kara Su and Murat Su join for an undisputed length of Euphrates (some would consider Euphrates begins further up, and Murat Su is also Euphrates).

GT is approximately 12 km (7 mi) northeast of the city of Şanlıurfa, approximately 760 m (2,490 ft) above sea level. Şanlıurfa, Urfa or Al-Ruha is is situated on a plain about eighty kilometres east of the Euphrates River. If that plain counts as continuing the plains South of Zagros ... well, then GT is in Shinar.

Back to where we started. Josephus 1:4

1. Now the sons of Noah were three, - Shem, Japhet, and Ham, born one hundred years before the Deluge. These first of all descended from the mountains into the plains, and fixed their habitation there; and persuaded others who were greatly afraid of the lower grounds on account of the flood, and so were very loath to come down from the higher places, to venture to follow their examples. Now the plain in which they first dwelt was called Shinar. God also commanded them to send colonies abroad, for the thorough peopling of the earth, that they might not raise seditions among themselves, but might cultivate a great part of the earth, and enjoy its fruits after a plentiful manner. But they were so ill instructed that they did not obey God; for which reason they fell into calamities, and were made sensible, by experience, of what sin they had been guilty: for when they flourished with a numerous youth, God admonished them again to send out colonies; but they, imagining the prosperity they enjoyed was not derived from the favor of God, but supposing that their own power was the proper cause of the plentiful condition they were in, did not obey him. Nay, they added to this their disobedience to the Divine will, the suspicion that they were therefore ordered to send out separate colonies, that, being divided asunder, they might the more easily be Oppressed.

2. Now it was Nimrod who excited them to such an affront and contempt of God. He was the grandson of Ham, the son of Noah, a bold man, and of great strength of hand. He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it was through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He also gradually changed the government into tyranny, seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence on his power. He also said he would be revenged on God, if he should have a mind to drown the world again; for that he would build a tower too high for the waters to be able to reach! and that he would avenge himself on God for destroying their forefathers !

3. Now the multitude were very ready to follow the determination of Nimrod, and to esteem it a piece of cowardice to submit to God; and they built a tower, neither sparing any pains, nor being in any degree negligent about the work: and, by reason of the multitude of hands employed in it, it grew very high, sooner than any one could expect; but the thickness of it was so great, and it was so strongly built, that thereby its great height seemed, upon the view, to be less than it really was. It was built of burnt brick, cemented together with mortar, made of bitumen, that it might not be liable to admit water. When God saw that they acted so madly, he did not resolve to destroy them utterly, since they were not grown wiser by the destruction of the former sinners; but he caused a tumult among them, by producing in them divers languages, and causing that, through the multitude of those languages, they should not be able to understand one another. The place wherein they built the tower is now called Babylon, because of the confusion of that language which they readily understood before; for the Hebrews mean by the word Babel, confusion. The Sibyl also makes mention of this tower, and of the confusion of the language, when she says thus: "When all men were of one language, some of them built a high tower, as if they would thereby ascend up to heaven, but the gods sent storms of wind and overthrew the tower, and gave every one his peculiar language; and for this reason it was that the city was called Babylon." But as to the plan of Shinar, in the country of Babylonia, Hestiaeus mentions it, when he says thus: "Such of the priests as were saved, took the sacred vessels of Jupiter Enyalius, and came to Shinar of Babylonia."

Here is Petrus Comestor:

Quare vero primus coeperit dominari ostendit, agens de quodam filio Noe, de quo non egit Moyses, sic dicens: Centesimo anno tertiae chiliadis natus est Noe filius in similitudinem ejus, et dixit eum Jonithum . Trecentesimo anno dedit Noe donationes filio suo Jonitho, et dimisit eum in terram Ethan, et intravit eam Jonithus usque ad mare orientis, quod dicitur Elioschora, id est solis regio, hic accepit a Domino donum sapientiae, et invenit astronomiam.

Ad quem veniens Nemrod, Gigas decem cubitorum, eruditus est ab eo, et accepit ab eo consilium, in quibus locis regnare coepisset. Jonithus iste futuros quosdam eventus praevidit, et maxime de ortu quatuor regnorum, et occasu eorum per successionem. Quam etiam plane prophetavit Daniel. Et praedixit discipulo suo Nemrod, quod primi regnarent de Cham, de quo Belus descendit, post de Sem Medi, et Persae, et Graeci, post, de Japheth Romani. A quo rediens Nemrod accensus amore dominandi, sollicitavit genus suum de Sem, ut imperaret aliis, quasi primogenitus, sed noluerunt; et ideo transivit ad Cham, qui acquievit, et regnavit inter eos in Babylone, et exinde dictus est de filiis Cham.

Sed si vere fuit de filiis Cham, tunc nulla est quaestio quare inter eos regnaverit; hujus exemplo coepit regnare Jectam, vel Jetram, vel Uram super filios Sem, Suphene, vel Sustene super filios Japheth. Narrat autem Philo Judaeus, vel ut alii volunt Gentilis philosophus, in libro Quaestionum super Genesim, quod ex tribus filiis Noe adhuc ipso vivente sunt nati viginti quatuor millia virorum et centum, extra mulieres et parvulos, habentes tres super se duces, quos praediximus.

Post obitum vero Noe, moventes pedes suos ab Oriente, convenerunt duces in unum, in campum Sennaar, et timentes diluvium, consilio Nemrod volentis regnare, coeperunt aedificare turrim, quae pertingeret usque ad coelos, habentes lateres pro saxis, et bitumen pro caemento. Descendit autem Dominus, ut videret turrim (Gen. XI), animadvertit, ut puniret, et ait ad angelos: Venite, et confundamus linguam eorum, ut non intelligat quisque vocem proximi sui. In hac divisione nihil non fecit Deus, quia voces eaedem sunt apud omnes gentes, sed dicendi modos, et formas diversis generibus divisit.

Which I translated as:

But he shows why at first he started to dominate, speaking of a certain son of Noah not mentioned by Moses, saying so: in the hundredth year of the third millennium [after the Flood?] a son was born to Noah in similitude of himself, and he called him Jonithus [Jonathan?] In the threehundredth year Noah gave gifts to his son Jonithus, and sent him into the land Ethann and Jonithus entered into it all the way unto the sea of the East, which is called Helioschora, which is Region of the Sun, he received of the Lord the gift of wisdom and invented astronomy.

To him came Nemrod, a Ten Cubit Giant, was taught by him, and received from him Counsil in which locations he was to start reigning. This Jonithus foresaw some future events, and most of all of the beginning of the four kingdoms and the fall of them in succession. Which succession also Daniel clearly prophesied? And he foretold to his student Nemrod, that the first were to rule of Cham, of whom descends Belus, then of Shem, Medes, Persians, Greeks, then, of Japheth, Romans. From whom Nemrod came back inflamed with love of lording over others, asked for the help of his own of Shem, in order to command others, as he was firstborn, but they would not; and therefore he went over to Cham, who acquiesced, and ruled among them in Babylon, and therefore he is said to be of the sons of Cham.

But if he really was of the sons of Cham, then there is no question at all why it would be among them that he ruled; following his example Jectam, or Jetram, or Uram started to rule over the Sons of Shem, Suphene or Sustene over the Sons if Japheth. But Philo Judaeus tells us, or according to others it is a Pagan Philosopher, in the Book of Questions over Genesis, that of the three sons of Noah, while he was still alive, were born 24100 men, not counting women and as yet small ones, having the three dukes or leaders which we mentioned.

After the Death of Noah, moving their feet from the East, the leaders convened in one place, in the field of Shinear, and fearing [another] Deluge, on the counsel of Nemrod who wanted to rule, started making a Tower, which would reach into the skies, having brick instead of stones and "slime" - asphalt - instead of mortar. But the Lord want down to see the Tower (Genesis XI), took heed to punish and told the angels: come let us confound their tongue, so that each one may not understand the speach of his neighbour. In this divison all was done by God, since the speach is the same in all nations, but the ways of saying things and the forms He divided in diverse kinds.

Now, let's reason a bit about this. Ethann, Helioschora ... could it be Gunung Padang?

  • 1) It is clearly further East than Göbekli Tepe;
  • 2) If Younger Dryas involved some gigantic Floods (though inferior to Flood of Noah), this would explain the shyness of getting onto a plain (and would explain a preference for a plain where it is fairly high, like GT, now 760 meters above sea level, over a lower plain, like 34 m (100 feet) above present sea level;
  • 3) Gunung Padang flourished (or started to get built) 20 000 BP, 18 000 BC, carbon dates, if Hancock is right about drill holes. This would be before Younger Dryas - and Younger Dryas is very evocative of "But they were so ill instructed that they did not obey God; for which reason they fell into calamities, and were made sensible, by experience, of what sin they had been guilty:"

On the other hand, we have:

"for when they flourished with a numerous youth, God admonished them again to send out colonies; but they, imagining the prosperity they enjoyed was not derived from the favor of God, but supposing that their own power was the proper cause of the plentiful condition they were in, did not obey him. Nay, they added to this their disobedience to the Divine will, the suspicion that they were therefore ordered to send out separate colonies, that, being divided asunder, they might the more easily be Oppressed."

However, this is contradicted by the information from perhaps Philo, perhaps someone else, in Petrus Comestor, of a land governed by Jonithus (I wonder if it is a corruption of Jonathan, because Jonathas is a correct form of Jonathan in nominative, and Jonithus could involve phonetic corruption of mid a to i, Jonithas, and scribal error of -us for -as).

The refusal to send out colonies did not necessarily mean none existed, and it could have been less absolute than tradition recalled.

We also have Josephus describing a pyramid (so broad it looked less high than it was) and this contradicts the known facts of Göbekli Tepe - but could be due to a confusion between GT and Gunung Padang.

So, I am eagerly awaiting, will Graham Hancock say sth about people fleeing Indonesia getting to Göbekli Tepe with agriculture and know-how? We'll see.

We also have lack of bricks and bitumen used as mortar - but Gunung Padang is nearly not excavated at all, and GT is excavated to about 1/50 of total extent.

Genesis 11:4 And when they removed from the east, they found a plain in the land of Sennaar, and dwelt in it.

Here I must also caution against a mistake I made earlier, saying the rocket was not being built for launching, but only planned. Presuming a three step rocket could be described as a tower, the top whereof may reach to heaven, it must have been ready for arrival of uranium (if my reconstruction is right), because the tower (rocket?) was already to be seen:

Verse 5 : And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of Adam were building.

That said, I'll here resume listening. Meanwhile, take a look at this:

"He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it was through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He also gradually changed the government into tyranny, seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence on his power."

An accurate description of socialism, in its initial ideals and its realisation, isn't it? Eerily accurate!

Hans Georg Lundahl
St Symphorosa and her seven sons*
Martyrs of Tivoli

* Tibure sanctae Symphorosae, uxoris sancti Getulii Martyris, cum septem filiis suis, scilicet Crescente, Juliano, Nemesio, Primitivo, Justino, Stacteo et Eugenio. Horum mater, sub Hadriano Principe, ob insuperabilem constantiam, primo caesa diu palmis, deinde crinibus suspensa, novissime saxo alligata, in flumen praecipitata est; filii autem, stipitibus ad trochleas extensi, diverso mortis exitu martyrium compleverunt. Eorumdem corpora postea Romam translata, et, Pio Quarto Summo Pontifice, in Diaconia sancti Angeli in Piscina fuerunt inventa.

lundi 17 juillet 2017

Is Graham Hancock Right on Göbekli Tepe? Part 3

At 15:21, Graham Hancock has just said that archaeology is a very imprecise science, archaeologists are interpreting the data according to their philosophy, cited a man who says archaeology doesn't qualify as a science.

"Archaeology is misleading the public"

Well, there is more than one creationist who would agree on that point!

Too bad GH is not including carbon dating as one of the things subject to interpretation, since the datings are built on cosmic radiation having kept carbon 14 at a constant amount of 70 tons in the atmosphere (or else, that wiki was ... well no, it is still there):

Cosmic rays kept the level of carbon-14[73] in the atmosphere roughly constant (70 tons) for at least the past 100,000 years, until the beginning of above-ground nuclear weapons testing in the early 1950s. This is an important fact used in radiocarbon dating used in archaeology.

The reference is:

Trumbore, Susan (2000). Noller, J. S.; J. M. Sowers; W. R. Lettis, eds. Quaternary Geochronology: Methods and Applications. Washington, D.C.: American Geophysical Union. pp. 41–59. ISBN 0-87590-950-7.

"The tendency is to reject the new facts because they don't fit in with the theory - and that is the opposite of [good science.]"

I think I can see some relevance to such a remark ... Hancock also speaks of a knowleddge filter, attributing the term to Michael Kremer*, Forbidden Archaeology. Some things are so out of the way compared to current theories that ...

"It never reaches the public."

And in conclusion:

"It takes someone who is marginal to the field, to bring that information."

Because those who are way inside it, are tied up with the pre-fabricated theorems, the theories already known, and being falsified.

I am NOT sure this is correct, it looks like a generalisation on history of sciences.

I think however it could be sth which is more and more like truth these days.

Hans Georg Lundahl
ut supra (vel ut infra)

* Correction : Michael Cremo.

Is Graham Hancock Right on Göbekli Tepe? Part 2

From same video as previous:

"At exactly the moment when Göbekli Tepe is created, we get the sudden spread of agriculture in the same region, a region which had not known agriculture before, where people were hunters and gatherers : suddenly they know how to do agriculture."

With conventional carbon dates reaching back to 40 000 BP for arrival of Homo Sapiens (often considered as distinct from Neanderthal in species) North of Mediterranean, and other methods adding millions, also without agriculture, we get the kind of mystery Graham Hancock reacts to.

Hunting and gathering could have been a very good livelyhood with no incentive at all to invent sth better.

Or man could have been incapable of inventing it in his own, having lived most of its time without it. Giving us conclusions like what I think Hancock's are, from title of video : Atlanteans or extraterrestrials arrived.

Or man was simply after some centuries of experimentation recovering agriculture after the Flood. But this is only possible if carbon content was rising so steeply in atmosphere, that a few centuries look like tens of thousands of years in carbon dates.

Maybe even before this, since the scarce centuries could involve the chance of wheat growing but not getting preserved to us before Babel / Göbekli Tepe project.

I read of a wheat ear found dated 20 000 BP in Holy Land. That would be a century or two or three earlier in Biblical chronology, which is the true one. CMI mentioned starch found on clubs of cave men - meaning they did have wheat.* And someone who believes evolution thinks millet comes from a Chinese wild grass cultivated way earlier.**

So, Hancock is wrong on start of agriculture and how long man was without it before that. So is every evolutionist.

Hans Georg Lundahl
St. Alexius of Rome

PS "they must have been a specially inspired group of hunter gatherers" ... GH resuming archaeologists of similar evolutionist persuasions. Obviously, if the real beginning was before the Flood, and the tens of thousands of years were just some post-Flood centuries, the matter is in another light./HGL


* ‘Stone Age’ flour demolishes another evolutionary preconception
by David Catchpoole, Published: 4 November 2010 (GMT+10)

** Could not find reference, found this instead:

This is however only about the time of Göbekli Tepe or just after, I had read another one, in which this was earlier, if I recall correctly.